Let me tank!

Holy ShieldToday’s guest poster is Tyaera, a Protection Paladin on the Dath’Remar server. Tyaera feels paladins just need a chance to prove their abilities when tanking end game bosses. Read on..

Being a paladin tank is kind of like wanting to push a square peg into a round hole. Quite often, before I joined my current guild, this is what I’d hear. “I can tank this boss!” “paladins can’t tank this boss because of X!” “[insert long diatribe about exactly why X reason is totally invalid, including an in-depth gear analysis and comparison as to why you are able to tank it]“. “….yeah ok. [warrior name], you’re tanking”.

Pretty frustrating.

I read all of the theorycrafting (well, ok, not ALL of it, there’s enough theorycrafting out there to supply a small African nation with scrap paper for about thirty six years, but I read a lot), I compared pieces of gear endlessly. While I was still buying badge gear, it wasn’t uncommon to find me sitting in front of the badge vendor for about an hour, comparing two pieces of gear, to find out which one was the best, no matter the tiny margin of difference. I put in as absolutely much effort as I could to maximize my potential.

Sorry, only warriors tank raid bosses.

Half of a paladin tank’s struggle is to learn to tank. Learn what uncrushable means. Learn what uncrittable means. Tank as much as you can so that you can become a good TANK as well as a good paladin tank. There are a lot of skills essential to being a good tank that are not paladin-specific!

The other half of the struggle is to be allowed to tank. And when I say allowed to tank, I don’t mean, brought to Zul’Aman to tank Jan’alai hawks. I don’t mean brought to Karazhan off nights to speed up the trash. I don’t mean brought to SSC to tank Tidewalker’s adds, then subbed out. I mean to be allowed to tank on an equal level to warriors.

A lot of paladins fall into the trap of talenting into Holy, “just for tonight”. Tonight turns into two nights. Then a week. Then a month. Before you know it, you’re the paladin holy class leader and you still haven’t tanked anything. You might be being tossed tanking pieces every now and then but you’re still not going to be tanking anything.

The best advice I can give is to find yourself a pocket healer. Take them on a 5man instance run. Show them how much easier and quicker an instance is with you than anyone else they’ve run with, and show them that you’re skilled. They’ll want to come again. Then you can start bringing smart DPSers. They’ll appreciate you too. By the time it comes time for raid invites, if you’re not in the group and tanking, people will start asking, hey, why doesn’t [Pallytank] ever tank anything?

A personal example is when our guild was making Leotheras the Blind attempts. Our prot warrior was having a huge amount of trouble picking up Leo after whirlwinds, and someone said “well why don’t we get Ty to tank him, he can use his shield to pick up Leo”, and everyone agreed, so I did.

They will get you accepted without you having to say a word. They’ll speak up for you.

And that’s the best kind of success.

-Tyaer

Comments

  1. St. Caydiem says:

    The sheer selfishness of taking taking positions from deserving warriors is why the paladin community doesn’t deserve buffs. You need to just accept that your place is in the back of the raid. Be thankful that encounters aren’t just designed around you spamming cleanse anymore.

    Even wanting to do more then that is a selfish waste of time given how strong the holy tree is. And a tank with a pure immunity bubble is just game breaking. You need to simply be happy that you have a role in the raid at all. You’re a healer wasting a raid spot.

    -Ella

  2. I’m probably responding to flamebait or trolling here but I’ve actually had this point of view expressed in all seriousness before. Lets turn that comment on its head shall we?

    “The sheer selfishness of taking tanking positions from deserving paladins is why the warrior community doesn’t deserve buffs. You need to just accept that your place is swinging two swords while the paladins do the AOE job better than you and single target as well as you. Be thankful that encounters aren’t just designed around spamming Sunder all anymore.
    Even wanting to do more than that is a selfish waste of time given how strong the Fury tree is. And a tank with a 75% damage reduction that doesn’t drop aggro is just game breaking. You need to simply be happy that you have a role in the raid at all. You’re a DPSer wasting a raid spot.”

    How interesting that it applies to both. Every tank has its place, and you need all three to do well.

  3. hi Thoma! Thanks for your kind comment!

  4. tankette says:

    I like having Pally tanks in our raids. We could really use more of them in our guild. If I ever get tempted to roll a new character it would likely be a Pally tank.

  5. thanks tankette! always nice to hear we’re wanted
    that’s also exactly what I did. I played a priest to 70 first. Didn’t do much with him once I did hit 70…healing isn’t really my “thing”. I rolled a mage after that, raided up to the beginning of Mount Hyjal with him. Eventually I had to take a break from the game for a couple of months, and when I came back, I rolled Tyaera. Basically she was going to be Protection from the word go, and thats what happened.

  6. balloo33 says:

    well for me you can get ure chance, i didnt like it at first as well, but ive seen paladin tanks do some amasing things. in the old days anything else then a warrior tank wasnt just an option nowadays u got 3 types of tank who just excel in different fields. druids are threat monsters ofc, who wants to compete with the aoe tanking of a pally. and then theres the warrior, all around tank and prolly one of the best on survivability (althow thats just my idea, but im a heavy warrior fanboy :D)
    so for me its all fine, been running after a pally tank for a bit in kara and i was promoted to the dps camp wich is a chance for a prot specced warrior :)

  7. @balloo33,

    that often seems to be the way it goes
    everyone doubts a paladin until they see one in action at their finest
    i suspect that most of the doubters have encountered many paladin tanks who did NOT bother to do the work and effort that I have done, and this sours their experiences

  8. I personally like the idea of other tank types. :) I’ve had some experiance with druids but have not as yet had a chance to run in Kara with our pally tanks. When our guild started raiding it was warriors tanking, then a couple druids figured they would try it and we helped them understand threat generation and survivability. Now we have pally’s tanking and I never get to see them in action due to my work schedule. :( Everyone seems to like them and I figure it’s like anything else, if you do it well it doesn’t really matter how. Mana, rage or whatever…

  9. @Lunk:

    Wow, if you haven’t ever seen a paladin tank in action you are definitely missing out. There’s nothing quite like going into Kara one week with two warriors and marking up meticulous CC for every pull, then going in with a paladin later and marking up a single skull, then AOE tanking the whole lot.

  10. I have seen pally-tanks in action quite often. And there is one question that comes popping up again and again: “If pally-tanks are so good, what do you need warriors and druids for?” If a paladin tank can survive a hard-hitting boss as good as the other two, these other two become useless. They have already become quite useless in 5man instances (as DD I would always prefer a paladin) – due to the paladin AOE tanking ability there is no need for CC any more, which is quite an advantage. Isn’t it a little unbalanced if pally-tanks can do everything at least as good as the other two tanking classes?

    PS: I sometimes regret having chosen a warrior as tank…

  11. Druids are useful because they are built to take crushing blows, so they have higher physical mitigation. Hence, on any boss that doesn’t crush, they are typically a superior tank. They also generally put out more threat. Its also nice having a druid, because they can successfully DPS without a gear-swap. The typical tanks for ZA, particularly bear runs, are often a Prot paladin and a feral druid.

    To be sure, you could tank every instance in the game, 25man, 10man, or 5man, with 100% paladin tanks, and not have a problem. But the player distribution doesn’t work like that, so there will always BE warriors and always BE druids, and there are plenty of fights where, although I COULD main tank them, we have our warrior main-tank do it, because I’m more valuable in an offtank role, such as Tidewalker.

  12. Pallytankftw says:

    Its just been stupid not to agree how pally tanks are good tanks for general encounters.
    The fact is, depending on witch place, witch boss you are going for, its best to have druid, pally and warrior, examples:

    Karazan: Maiden encounter… pally tanks are no good, due to the silencing concecrate of maiden but you go there druid or warrior and do it while, a pally tank that actually work hard on his gear, could off heals this easily, so yeah you are not losing a dps spot you are gaining additional heals. I myself have 1500 healing bonus on my off spec gear and can easily help offhealing the raid or a main tank in any encounter if only a single tank is needed and im not suitable for it.

    Now, have you done Zul’aman without a pally tank? if you did, i bet you cryed your ass out on the Hawk boss, wich pretty much REQUIRES a pally tank.

    So for people that says, shit about pally tanks or any other tank you fail. As stated before, Every tank is needed depending on the encounter and btw.. for heroics, there is no best tank than Paladins, my guildies asks me everyday to do heroics with them because they can go all out single or aoe target because my 500 spell damage wont let me lose a single agro =).

  13. Ok, I didn’t start raides yet, but each time I joined a party as a prot pally and I wasn’t the main tank, the warrior that was doing the job was doing worst that what I would have done and had aggro issues.

    And I’m pretty noobie in tanking, it’s been 1 month only so far… and I’m learning the hard way because we’re like 2 in our guild only, so basically i have to read sites like this one to get a few tips on how to keep aggro…

    But then again, warriors would be useless if they couldn’t tank, wouldn’t they?

  14. Not at all. Warriors who spec and gear for damage-dealing have a great deal to contribute to a raid, including Thunderclap, Commanding Shout, Battle Shout, Demoralising Shout, and fantastic damage to boot.

    But its a moot point, because warriors can tank, and they do it very well, they just do it differently to us and to druids.

  15. Tyaera, I’m a long time Paladin tank.. which is to say… my very FIRST character I rolled which I knew I wanted to be a tank before I even bought the game. That being said, I’m currently struggling to be the best I can and certainly good enough to be a choice over typical Warriors who just need to spam their shield block to be viable. Asshats like St. Caydiem up there are the prime reason I put off trying to gear for Karazhan for so long, they tell us we can’t do this… we can’t do that and discourage us completely. I’ve been discouraged enough by these dumb schmucks who basically still live in PRE-BC where Warriors and Druids owned the day.

    So thankfully, I’m happy that people much like you are out there who give the rest of us, who have tanking in their blood as paladin, the incentive to shatter those asinine ideals that have plagued the minds of the intellectually inept player base of WoW. I believe we can tank as well if not better than Warriors and Druids. It’s high time we earn our rightful spot as true tanks and silence the rabble that make us seem less than we really are.

    PS: I’m definitely interested in any advice if you’re willing. Reading about something isn’t enough.. sorta need to know from fellow pallies who have done it all. :)

  16. Unaru:

    Very well spoken, and I am of course always happy to give advice. I’m far from the expert, and have hardly “done it all”, but I like to think I have enough experience to help. Forums are a good spot to ask the questions, or you can shoot me a PM

  17. Simple fact is that paladins have tanked every phase of every boss in the game, there is no uber boss we cannot tank, there are fights we shouldn’t tank by preference.

    I have done the fighting to be allowed to tank thing, and to be honest its hard, its annoying, its getting less the more I and others fight for it however I find its not normally the tanks that tell me I can’t tank it. A tank tends to look at the situation and from at least their point of view analyse it, loads of adds, magic immune, drains mana /rage etc, and most tend to be willing to step aside even if their ego demands they don’t.

    Convincing dps, healers and your RL is a whole different scenario, I tanked Blooboil for the first time, and over vent I heard people saying it was bad for me to tank it, after all I need reactive threat, (which is typically

  18. very correct, 2ndnin.

    bloodboil is actually one of the fights where a paladin shines. With the ability to self-bubble, they can instantly drop aggro off them, allowing another tank to take it, without having to try to pull off you in a rage-starved situation.

    With Avenging Wrath and spell damage trinket cooldowns, we can put on huge bursts of threat, so when the raid leader says “Ok, swap tanks”, just hit it and climb the threat list.

    To clarify one thing you said…paladins have tanked every phase of every boss in the game, yes. They have also PROGRESSION tanked these bosses. The key difference is that its quite easy for a paladin to be allowed to tank if a boss has been on farm for six months. Having a paladin tank progression attempts is harder to do in terms of convincing people its a good idea.

  19. See progression tanking isn’t any harder to make people see, we are currently progression tanking Bloodboil (dunno what nerfs he has had), and we have a bear, a warrior and me doing it. There were comments on how I need reactive threat, how I can’t control my threat (can be hard with reactive threat, holy shield and retribution seem to generate a lot sometimes), however once we started no one complained (I died a lot, but mostly it was debuffs stacking or healers missing me on the non-tank phases).

    Yes I do die a lot on boss fights, at the moment the RNG hates me (successfully avoided/blocked 2 hits out of 12 on Kael’thas’s weapons with 57% avoidance :(), and Antheron twatted me for 20K+ in 2 hits and some magic :(. People are willing to let me do it though because I showed I could do it, there is still a stigma attached to being a paladin main tank, but it can be overcome.

    I think the major issues people see are the traditional warrior support from the old world, the ohsht buttons and the higher avoidance at similar gear levels, what they don’t see is the parry hasting effects, the burst threat or simply the way to bypass warrior flaws such as sunder (improved expose is better, and only need 2k raid physical roughly to make up the loss of rogue dps to apply it). The key to many of these fights is to realise that we are not a warrior, and that for things we are just plain better or worse, I don’t think I really want to tank Azalgor (was tanking the infernals and they always seemed to hit when I was silenced) as it doesn’t suit our threat generation, but someone like rage or bloodboil, or even Kael’thas (I tank weapons + engineer, simply being able to hold all the weapons while they are nuked, and to pickup my advisor while still holding 3 weapons if needed is a major advantage, have actually tanked Kael, the engineer and 2 weapons until nearly the first pyro – things were going badly :P).

    Its a matter of perception, and perceptions will continue to change if Blizzard balances encounters around there being 3 tank classes, if they continue to make warriors the primary testing platform there will continue to be paladin makes it stupidly easy things, and paladins make it stupidly hard. If they want to make the latter then do it to all of us, a boss that drains rage, or is immune to physical damage, dots and debuffs that require tanks to swap either through taunts or through threat, threat debuffs, there is lots that can be done to force multiple and different tanks, imagine a boss that swaps to being immune to magic damage part way through the fight, yet is immune to physical before that, you need to have a paladin and another tank for it, or a boss that removes your shield (sets durability to 0, actually destroys it), several times during the fight with other mechanics, suddenly bears become a lot more interesting as well.

  20. Pallytankftw says:

    Im a pally currently on t5 content and seriously, every wants me everytime, heroics, karazan, ZA, TK, SSC, wherever they are going to do they make sure i have a place on it. So, pallys tanks are good? hehe heck yeah they are.

    Side note that some pallys dont know:
    Divine Shield(a.k.a.Bubble) does not reset agro, its a temporary agro drop, so you can make a good use of it for tanking having a macro to cast and then canceling the divine shield right away its gonna be a second of agro drop and the mobs or boss will go back to you by the time you cancel, Very good for that freakign curse thats fucking u up, or a garrote from moroes, or even timing your bubble to stops Kaels Pyro(what i always do in H-Magister Terrace if my group doesnt have a great dps).Now what does a warrior do? dies :)
    So pretty much to be a good pally tank you gotta know your class and you have to know IF you are geared enough to aoe tanking. Do not think you are going to be able to aoe tank every shit just because “pallys are meant to aoe tank” yeah they are, if you have the gear!

  21. Twistytank says:

    There may be another way to look at it:

    Warrior tanks are pretty much only good at one thing – tanking. We can switch to dps gear if we’re not tanking but we’re weak sisters when we’re not specced. On the other hand, Paladin tanks can throw on healing gear and offheal pretty effectively during a boss fight. At least in my guild, warrior tanks end up on the boss mostly because its the most efficient utilization of raid resources.

  22. Rochelle says:

    My biggest problem with any paladin tank I have ever encountered in game or on any tanking forum is that they all seem to feel like everyone is out to get them. They all seem to feel like nobody wants them around and they constantly need to prove themselves. I recognize that given equal gear and equal skill any tank, regardless of class, can tank any boss (unless there is a specific mechanic that precludes a certain class – shear, deaden, pyroblast, ect. Maybe it is because I am a tank and so I have a better understanding of what other tanking classes are capable.

    But still, given the choice between a warrior and a paladin, I will chose the warrior every time because I find the ‘I am a victim’ attitude incredibly annoying.

    Druids were the same way when TBC came out and then everyone got all hot and bothered by Effective Health tanks and so everyone came around on druids and they stopped acting like they were being persecuted.

    AoE tanking has made paladins desirable just like EH did for druids. But the paladins are still acting like everyone is out to get them. It drives me nuts. I read a couple threads on Maintankadin.com and it was like one great big pity party.

  23. Rochelle: A very valid point. However, its not the AOE tanking part of our abilities that is ever quesitoned. It is our ability to single-target main-tank that is always and constantly questioned, when it is perfectly capable. Yes, the majority of the WoW player base is very recognizant of how good paladin tanks are.

    However, take a warrior and a paladin to any big boss and the warrior will be stuck on the boss, while the paladin offheals and every single one of his heals are overhealing.

    Twistytank:
    These days when I’m offhealing, I usually just go afk. I’ll go out of mana very quickly not being specced Holy, my heals are weak, and when all the other healers have Healbot, they’re much faster at reacting to incoming damage than I ever will, so my heals are overhealing anyway. There is a such thing as too much healing.

    However, you can never have too much DPS. Our prot warrior has almost equal Fury gear to our Fury warrior, and when specced Prot, as long as he has the opportunity to put on full DPS gear, rocks about 800-900 DPS. If he doesn’t have the time to put on DPS gear, thats another story, but then again if I don’t have time to put healing gear on, I might as well just sit there with the thumb up the proverbial pooper and sing songs.

  24. annonpalatank says:

    im a palatank and im getting pretty sick of respeccing to holy every single raid to the point im contemplating disenchanting my healing gear. my guild lets me roll on tanking gear which is the only thing im still there for, im way better geared than half of the warrior tanks we take along with us and when i complain its the same old excuses “well what if you go oom” “the warriors have more hp than you” (im sick of linking ardent defender) anyway its got to the point now where almost everyone in the guild /w me constantly “hey you wanna tank mgt heroic” “hey you wanna do the daily heroic we need a tank” etc ive even had most of them comment after an heroic saying wow that ws alot easier with you than it was with “mr warrior tank” so what the hell is wrong with people give us a go and you will be plesantly suprised i know the warriors in my guild already know i will be way better than them on the tanking front (except the odd boss that silences, maybe). my hope know is that when LTK comes out there will be palatank specific raids where a warrior will made to don his 2 swords and go hitting people well i protect him!

  25. Rochelle, there is very much an “I’m a victim” mentality amongst paladin tanks, and realistically it is deserved. Our AoE tanking as mentioned is never questioned, in fact often its a detriment to tanking (in a similar way in which Druids being capable of DPS in tank gear is to them getting MT slots), taking Morogrim Tidewalker, paladins are the best tanks for it (fast attacks, crushes, reasonable sized hits, no special tricks requiring spell reflect), yet we normally tank the adds an let a warrior or druid do the tanking.

    This mentality extends through everything else, that warriors in prot gear cannot dps (shield slam spec as prot with devestate does do damage), that warriors tank because paladins can heal and bears dps. Frankly yes, I can heal, my healing is 10% worse than a holy paladin roughly, and I have no stamina for healing (I regen no mana from crits, have a lower crit rate etc), doesn’t mean this is what I want to do or whats best for the raid. Using a warrior tank means they need sunders up, improved expose armour is better for the raid, the paladin’s threat is likely better as well. There is a chip on many paladin’s shoulders because we had to fight to tank, even when we have shown we can we get questioned about it (yeah I tanked 6 abominations in hyjal + everything in that wave, no I really can’t tank Bloodboil). Sure sometimes its easy, our warrior tank respecced mortal strike for Naj’entus and I tanked, but getting to that stage requires work, some people have it easy, others have had to fight to tank, fight to MT rather than a warrior even on fights we are the better tank. Really its all quite depressing, there are reasons Bears don’t normally tank (crushing blows, shears etc though you can deal with both of these), there are fights paladins really shouldn’t tank (ros pt 2, archi and similar where the stance dance + spell reflect comes in), and there are fights warriors shouldn’t tank (Felmyst, Brutallus, etc).

    Its not that I most paladins want to be seen as the sole tank, the tank for everything, all we want is to be considered as MT when we are appropriate, and to not be arbitrarily assigned to another role because we are not warriors. Being an aoe tank isn’t a great role, most of the time that translates as trash tank, trash maybe a large part of an instance, but for the majority of it its boring, no interesting mechanics other than spam this, win.

    People do want paladin tanks around, 5 mans, 10 mans we are unmatched, however the minute you step into 25mans suddenly we get a harder time of it, and thats the issue. The tanks you want around, that you like, that you say are great, suddenly they are 2nd fiddle, ZA is a good example of a fair instance, paladin tanks eagle, splits bear, OTs dragonhawk and soaks on lynx (bubbles + avoidance ftw), why can’t other instances require 3-5 tanks, offer fights to all 3 classes. I have a chip on my shoulder, its that I can tank, I know I can and I have, to be told I can’t or that someone else is better for it (often despite it being the other way round) is annoying, I will happily stand aside and let someone better tank it, I got offered Azalgor and Kaz’rogal, I stepped aside in both because I wasn’t the best choice, would just be nice to have the reverse recognised as well, that sometimes, yes, a paladin really can tank a 25man better than a warrior.

  26. Rochelle says:

    Deserved or not, the victimized attitude is annoying as hell and it is the reason I avoid paladin tanks and I would wager that it is the reason a lot of raid leaders avoid paladin tanks – they don’t need more drama.

    So, my advice, if you want to tank more bosses, get rid of the chip on your shoulder, stop fighting everything and just play. Stop reading paladin tank forums. They are furthering the bad attitude. Like I said before, they are just a huge pity party that feeds on itself with every post.

    When TBC was fresh, druids were in the exact same place. Nobody liked using druid tanks when there was a warrior around but things slowly changed and druids became viable tanks in the eyes of raid leaders. But as far as I recall, druids never had the bad attitude that the majority of prot paladins have. Probably because they had to fight even longer to be able to get tanking roles. Ferals were the prot pally of vanilla WoW. They fought to get tanking slots and they had a chip on their shoulder. But in vanilla, they were categorically worse than warriors. TBC came along and feral tanking was greatly enhanced and druids dropped their bad attitude and voila – they started tanking bosses.

    So, my message to the paladin tanking community: You are capable tanks but people don’t like you in raids because you are whiners. Stop whining and you will start tanking. It worked for druids, it will work for you.

    Also, warriors shouldn’t tank Brutallus? Thats news to me.

  27. annonpalatank says:

    hmm must be a warrior feeling threatened

  28. Rochelle says:

    hmmm must be a paladin feeling inadequate.

  29. Reason a warrior shouldn’t tank Brutallus by preference is a) high melee damage consistently, a Bear is simply better at that kind of fight, b) Availability of block, its not a lot but Paladins should always have holy shield up, a warrior cannot keep shield block up reliably in this fight, c) its a threat sensitive dps race, Paladins and Bears do more threat than warriors in most fights. Its not to say you want a paladin to do it either, by preference get a pair of high geared bears, but warriors aren’t your third choice normally for him.

    Paladin tank forums, the main ones being maintankadin.failsafedesign.com and elitistjerks, neither of which are sympathy parties, its a bunch of tanks, and theorycrafters sharing experience and knowledge, if you honestly think people there are going to cut you slack for being a paladin you are wrong, they will point out how you can tank any boss, and how to do it, but they will also say that its better for a raid if someone else does it.

    Chips on shoulders, yes a lot of us carry them, and possibly unjustly, however you also need to realise that there is a bias against protection paladins, and not in situations where there are justifiable reasons, Archimonde, Azgalor, heck even Maiden, you can find a justifiable reason not to use a paladin, Illidan you find a justifiable reason not to use a bear, RoS part 2 you find a justifiable reason to use a warrior. Why should a paladin need to fight to get to tank, why should we just be considered trash tanks when there is no reason we are worse than a warrior, or worse there are reasons we are better. Its not to say all raids, all guilds have this feeling, the guild I am in now likes Paladin tanks, for a while if the paladin tank wasn’t there raids didn’t happen, but in previous guilds I had to fight to be allowed to tank kara (having solo tanked it in a pug the previous week), its getting less, but many people still don’t see us as viable 25man tanks.

    Basically the point is, once people see we can tank and are allowed to tank based on raid efficiency and whats best for the raid, then we have no problems, I never met a paladin that wasn’t willing to let another tank do it, most good paladin tanks have a lot of humility. Forcing us to be trash tanks, or not allowing us to tank fights designed for us however is both annoying and makes chips, random puggers coming into a group with 2 paladins and 2 druids and asking where the tank is is a symptom of this, bears and tankadins are still bottom of the pile, its just a smaller pile than it used to be which is good. Hopefully in WoTLK there won’t be a pile, there will be 4 tanks, and 4 tanks that can all MT and have fights that by preference they tank.

  30. Deserved or not, the victimized attitude is annoying as hell and it is the reason I avoid paladin tanks and I would wager that it is the reason a lot of raid leaders avoid paladin tanks – they don’t need more drama.

    Sorry, I just realised this comment struck me, “Deserved or not” – so even if Paladins have a valid point, if its something that the dev’s seem to ignore, and content is present that we can’t easily tank, and I use easily here because paladin have been used in all progression fights even when the mechanics of the fight are horribly against it such as RoS ptII (there is no fight in the game a warrior cannot tank). There might be a victim attitude, but have you ever really asked your paladins why they feel that way, have your raid leaders looked at their tanking assignments objectively? Its not to say that its your raid and you can let anyone you want tank it, but if you show a bias, and make a tank feel like a trash tank, then they will bite back simply because being devalued and not being considered affects our attitudes no matter how we try and react to it.

  31. Rochelle says:

    a) Brutallus does not do consistent melee damage. He does huge tank killing bursts of melee damage. You cannot out-effective-health the burst. When a tank is afflicted with stomp, the tank will die unless they avoid. If it were a fight with consistent melee damage, then yes, a bear would be best, but its not that kind of fight. b) Just looking at last nights WWS parse, 81% of all attacks were blocked. Any good warrior will stack avoidance so that shield block is up a vast majority of the time. c) Even if you were right that paladins and druids are better at single target threat than a warrior with unlimited rage, its still not a threat sensitive fight unless your tanks are terrible at threat generation.

    Felmyst’s corruption is similar to stomp in that you really can’t beat it with EH, you have to avoid. And that means warrior.

    You are preaching to the choir about paladins being viable tanks. My point is, I don’t care. In my experience – both in game and on tanking forums – paladin tanks all feel like they need to prove something and they feel like they are entitled. They read sites like maintankadin where they will find other pallies telling them, ‘if your guild won’t let you tank, screw ‘em, find another guild’. And while that may be sound advice at its base, it fosters the idea that everyone else is wrong and the paladin is right and he should fight everything and everyone until they are allowed to tank everything. If you are out to prove that you are capable, then your goals aren’t the same as the raid’s goals. The raid is there to kill bosses. You are there to show everyone that you can tank.

  32. Anonpallytank: lets keep nonconstructive comments out of here.

  33. annonpalatank says:

    lets dry your eyes

  34. I thought those two were pretty similar actually?

    First misconception, paladins can stack more avoidance than warriors, because we have external sources of “rage” that mean we don’t need to take damage to actually tank. So if you want an avoidance tank stack a Paladin with some shaman / shadow priest / mana pots and let him go.

    Felmyst can be solo tanked by a Paladin, I don’t see your point here, why take a sub-par tank for it when a Paladin could solo tank the encounter for you? I guess you take 2 warriors and a bear to Hyjal as well because they can do that too, or does your Paladin get let out then? Thats the point Paladins want to make, we are better tanks for some encounters, why shouldn’t we tank it for the benefit of the raid. Heck trash in MH, BT, SSC, TK (barring the ones that do the overcharge attack), Magtheridon, Kara, ZA, can all be AoE tanked by a Paladin freeing up a spare tank to go dps. Why not use them this way rather than asking for more tanks, because that does compromise your raid in the way you seem to believe using a paladin will.

    Brutallus is basically physical damage, and horribly predictable, bears specialise in physical damage, especially non-crushing physical damage, seems like a plan to use one of those really? Paladins have more EH than warriors (not that it really matters on this fight), better threat and can stack more avoidance. Nothing can survive Brutallus without avoidance, and shield block is pretty useless here really (if he crushed he could blow through it anyway, but he doesn’t). As for threat generation, I can probably bet that your warlocks could pull if they want to on that fight, more threat is rarely a bad thing.

    So far your arguments have been ones I see a lot, Warrior = MT, that it, you don’t seem to be willing to look at the other two tanking classes for the benefit they bring to the raid and instead only see this chip, that chip is part of your attitude towards those tanks, Felmyst is a Paladin fight, Brutallus is a Druid fight, not looking past the old views and accepting all 3 tanking classes, soon 4 is more harmful to your raid than anything else.

    Maintankadin yeah you get advice saying you can tank, and maybe you should move guild, but then you get people here saying “why use a paladin or a bear when a warrior can do it”, same song, different choir mate.

  35. Rochelle says:

    You CAN have a paladin solo tank Felmyst. But its really not a good idea. If/when the tank gets targetted with lasers in P2 or if two people on complete opposite sides of the room get lasers, then the single tank is going to have an exceedingly hard time wrangling the skeletons. It becomes infinitely easier if you bring a second tank. Further, the DPS requirement is not stringent, especially if your guild is able to kill Brutallus. So you are going to have 2 tanks no matter what, now its a matter of deciding who does what. You can have a bear go cat or a warrior DW devastate spam for some dps while the paladin tanks, but then you have an extra person in melee range where encapsulates tend to be most problematic. OR you can have the warrior or druid tank the boss and have the pally do there little bit of dps. Having a pally being the extra person in melee is much less of a problem because he can bubble off the encapsulate. The raid also gets the benefit of having a person free to dispel gas nova from people who might have been missed/resisted the mass dispel. It just makes more sense for the overall strategy to have two tanks and if you have two tanks, then having the paladin free to do things besides tank in P1 is a lot more beneficial to the raid than having a free warrior or druid. If you want to bring two prot paladins along, then I suppose you can just run wild.

    I am not sure if you are saying that a paladin can stack more avoidance without the penalty of rage starvation or that they can stack more avoidance period. If its the former, then I would agree with you for all content prior to Sunwell. But once you get in Sunwell, a warrior stacking avoidance is going to have unlimited rage. If its the latter, then I just can’t see how that is true since your stats are split in more directions and there are only so many points in the item budget. So, if there is no penalty for stacking avoidance, then a warrior is going to have more simply by virtue of having fewer stats on their gear.

    Brutallus does not do horribly predictable damage. Unless you count ‘Holy-shit-there-is-a-huge-amount-of-incoming-damage-all-the-time-unless-there-is-a-stomp-and-then-its-more’ as predictable. It is an avoidance fight. You agreed that it is an avoidance fight. That alone means that a druid is not ideal. Week in and week out I take 150k less damage than our druid tank. I take a bit over 300 damage more than the druid per swing because the druid has more armor, but 300 dmg per swing is hardly enough to tip the scales in favor of a druid.

    If you have tanks that can’t hold aggro when they have unlimited rage/mana like they do on Brutallus, then either your DPSers are too dumb to know when to Soulshatter or Feign Death, or your tanks are terrible. Brutallus is so far from a threat sensitive fight it is silly to even talk about. And if it weren’t, in my experience a good warrior, a good druid and a good paladin all do roughly the same single target threat (paladin is less than the other two for non-demon/undead).

    So, thats why my raids don’t use paladins to tank the bosses you singled out. Not because we are a bunch of paladin hating bastards. On Felmyst it just makes sense to have an extra tank just in case and a paladin offtank has more raid utility than a warrior or druid offtank in phase 1. On Brutallus, a pure avoidance fight if there ever was on, we use a druid and a warrior and the warrior has significantly better survivability.

    ” Heck trash in MH, BT, SSC, TK (barring the ones that do the overcharge attack), Magtheridon, Kara, ZA, can all be AoE tanked by a Paladin freeing up a spare tank to go dps.” The problem is, what happens when something goes wrong. The paladin gets stunned, an add gets loose, the pally dies, you have a cleaving/WW mobs that need to be away from the raid, the tank needs to go afk to answer the door or get a drink or has a grandma on fire, those or any number of other things is why nobody likes to use a single tank for everything.

    Reread all my posts and no where will you find me saying ‘why use a paladin or bear when you have a warrior’. I said in my very first post that paladins are viable tanks for just about everything. You just happened to pick one encounter where a warrior IS better than a druid and another encounter that could conceivably be solo tanked by a paladin but practicality dictates that it isn’t.

  36. Rochelle: it just seems that your attitude, and those of others, is that; show me why I should use a paladin over a warrior. THAT is the mindset that we have a problem with. Why can’t the question be, why use a warrior over a paladin?

  37. Felmyst has been solo tanked.

    Most Brutallus killing guilds I have seen use bears.

    I have solo tanked SSC, MH and BT (upto Teron/Bloodboil) without major issues from dying or not being able to resolve a position for melee to stand.

    In terms of avoidance warriors tend to have more of it naturally, but have to stop stacking it, I can stack 60% in my current gear and not worry about mana, tanks with better gear can push more without such a hard cap as warriors rage generation.

    The fact is there are 3 tank classes, why not use all 3, that may seem like a chip but its reality, the whole warrior = tank thing seems odd when relying on their sunders actually lowers raid dps and various other issues.

  38. Rochelle says:

    I never said Felmyst can’t be solo tanked. In fact I said just the opposite. But I went on to say that just because it is possible, doesnt make it a good idea. It is much more reliable to have more than 1 tank for that encounter.

    Avoidance stacking warriors make tank death a non-factor on Brutallus. Don’t look at guilds who are just killing him now, look at the first bunch of guilds that killed him – the true min/maxers – and you see that they all used warriors. Just looking at any random guild that can kill Brutallus isn’t going to tell you much because if it took 4 months to kill a tank and spank dps-race boss, then they aren’t very good at raiding.

    Just because you have tanked that stuff without major issue doesn’t mean its a good idea. Its the same idea for bringing a second tank to Felmyst. A second tank means there is room for error.

    Prior to Sunwell you never ever ever have to stack avoidance. So a paladin being able to put on more than a warrior without penalty is irrelevant because you never need to put

  39. Rochelle says:

    I hit submit early by mistake…

    Prior to Sunwell you never ever ever have to stack avoidance. So a paladin being able to put on more than a warrior without penalty is irrelevant because you never need to put on more avoidance gear. But, inside Sunwell, the damage output and the Sunwell Radiance buff means there is no penalty for stacking avoidance. So, when avoidance doesn’t matter, a paladin can stack more without penalty and when it does matter, a warrior has more and the penalty is removed.

  40. Rochelle says:

    I did it again, I am dumb.

    For Expose armor to be better than sunder, the rogue has to spend 2 talent points and blow 5 combo points every 5 seconds. The rogue loses DPS from having a suboptimal spec and the lose DPS because they can’t use a real finisher. Unless you have a ridiculous amount of physical DPS, the extra 475 armor reduction isn’t going to make up for the rogue’s lost dps.

  41. fustigator says:

    Rochelle:
    Expose armor lasts 30 seconds, not 5. It’s really not that hard to get to either; Most raiding rogues already went into assissination to get Relentless Strikes. It will lower the dps of the rogue doing it somewhat.

  42. IIRC the maths is something like an 80dps drop for that rogue, and > 2000 raid physical damage makes up for it.

    Improved Expose armour is a benefit, but its a raid benefit not a personal one.

  43. Hi Tyaera I’m a Pally Tank myself. I raped the LK dungeons but, with the Cata H it just seems like I’m a failure, even being raid geared(for the most part) :( Which I know not to be true :) i was looking for some some advice, maybe a good rotation an idea of what cooldowns mean just a lil bit of help to help me survive. I like the hardness of them it’s awesome, but i dont like feeling like i’m doing less than my best. ty Raen-Blade’ Edge

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